tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post115982106696385242..comments2024-03-25T06:19:05.171-04:00Comments on Some Guy's Blog: My Omnibus Religion Post...Some Guyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-45304362067885003782010-05-07T04:41:41.820-04:002010-05-07T04:41:41.820-04:00PS
Just realizing the potential truth of my last c...PS<br />Just realizing the potential truth of my last comment- I beleive Jesus tore at the heart of the status quo religion of His day- and they killed him for it.<br /><br />LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-34690828926139794382010-05-07T04:31:41.743-04:002010-05-07T04:31:41.743-04:00From Lefty, Pt 2
I count myself a Christian, thoug...From Lefty, Pt 2<br />I count myself a Christian, though in humor my small circle of friends call ourselves part of the Christian Left... As opposed to the typical "Christian Right" behavior that is so condemning of other views, so politically focused, so... self-RIGHT-ous! Whatever we call ourselves (I think all open minds hate labels), my circle of friends see all kinds of hypocracy in the status quo beliefs and behavior of most of organised Christianity. Many Christians have expressed they are worried about my soul when I say I'm not sure there's a God or that I'm going to Heaven; so I point out that the Bible says we should fret about nothing and trust God, and I point out that they are trying to get me to accept beliefs that they themselves dont truely believe. If they dont have faith in their religion, why are they preaching it to me?<br /><br />I've had to "unlearned" so much in my time! Anyone who doesn't grasp the uncertainty built into the fabric of reality should study quantum physics, the science of the very small.The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, quantum sliperiness, and unpredictable, truely random events- this is what our organised, beautiful world is made of. Nothing we percieve is real, it's just a perception relative to our size. if it were possible to shrink oneself down to the size of an electron, we would be forced to realize that everything we thought we knew was real wasn't, in any certain sense.<br /><br /> Knowing almost nothing with a sense of certainty is scary at first. But it directs us to realize that mankind has managed to survive, both in mass and as individuals, in the face of such uncertainty, for tens of thousands of years. While our ancestors certainly believed they knew things, did they really? And did false beliefs provide anything good, beyond the false sense of comfort against the unknown? And how much have our false beliefs held us back throughout evolution and history?<br />If there is a God in the all powerful sense, he designing us with the option to do what is not in our best interest, giving us the oportunity to learn about our choices and grow beyond our created selves. The idea of this God becoming one us, then accepting the consequences for HIS aforementioned choice by dying to fulfill the natural consequence of our poor choices - I find this to be the greatest definition of unconditional love I can imagine or grasp. <br />We can let go of our false security-blanket of "knowledge" only by accepting that we have the right to go after whatever we want - to be assertive - without reason or knowledge, but just because it "feels right". We've been trained to care too much what others think; to believe we need to behave in a manor that aligns with other peoples reasoning. Horse-doodoo! we only need to care a little: just enough to keep those we want around us happy to be around us! The rest can can be unhappy with me all they like, lol.<br /><br />I prefer to believe in a personal and self-aware type of Creator. If we stop questioning His Wisdom and Glory, perhaps we'll realize the world really is a perfect place - I say this because I accept that it wasnt meant to be perfect the way we tend to imagine it should be. <br /><br />BTW, I suspect Jesus WAS viewed as the equivalent of a dirty hippie<br />liberal with crazy ideas.<br />May whatever you believe work well for you!<br />LeftyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-21779187609103522392010-05-07T04:29:39.382-04:002010-05-07T04:29:39.382-04:00A refreshing post, Chris. I've never blogged, ...A refreshing post, Chris. I've never blogged, but I've been thinking of starting one just to express my views on religion, knowledge, truth, and related subjects. I hope you dont mind if I add in length to your blog. I've some similar views and some that are contrary, but I find an open mind very refreshing, I feel it's the heart and soul of wisdom. <br /><br />We are taught many things as we grow from childhood. Yet much of our learning is from the silent examples around us ~ between the lines of what we are specifically taught is the lesson that once taught something we then "know" something. Yet we don't learn to define the concept of knowledge itself. Does real knowledge include a sense of certainty? I believe that it does in the ultimate sense. And is certainty something we can measure by degrees, or is it an all-or-nothing type of thing, like being pregnant? For me it is all or nothing: a proposition is either true in the fullest possible sense, beyond arguability, or it contains some potential falsehood, and therefore isn't knowledge but a belief. Knowledge is immutable - what we can "know" should never be changeable, or we didn't really know it. <br /><br />I've become aware of the degrees of certainty we tend to utilize to express our beliefs, or perhaps more accurately the strength of passion we feel regarding our beliefs. I think we have a strong sense of cetainty regarding only two things: each of us "KNOWS" what we think and feel. If I'm feeling happy, sad, angry, etc, if someone proposes the idea that I am mistaken, that I am really feeling something else, most would agree that this is simply not worthy of a response. Likewise with my thoughts and opinions: If someone suggests that I think differently about something than I express, well, who knows me better than me? Only an omniscient God, if there is such a thing. <br /><br />For me this defines the maximum degree of possible certainty of any knowledge, or at least the best I can attain. The only things we can truely "know" in this sense are those which are ultimately true, beyond not just a reasonable doubt, but ANY doubt - beyond the ability to argue. Everything else in my head/mind/heart/soul(?) is simply part of a set of beliefs. <br /><br />Many Christians claim to 'know" there is a God, that they are going to heaven, etc.<br />Where in the Bible does God tell us to "know" anything in this certain sense? Doesn't the Bible teach instead to have faith, to believe? Having true knowledge, or even claiming to know something, denies and cancels any possibilty of faith and belief; they become redundant and pointless. <br /><br />LeftyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160152240947064742006-10-06T12:30:00.000-04:002006-10-06T12:30:00.000-04:00V- I don't think I am particularly defensive, and ...V- I don't think I am particularly defensive, and I am certainly not angry. I find this an interesting conversation, however, if you don't want to be having it, that is fine with me.<BR/><BR/>To your comments--Of course we define the universe through our belief systems, however to me the term "Christian Universe" implies that I view the universe as inherently Christian, which I don't . I was raised in the Christian tradition, tht doesn't mean that I view it as being the only right one.<BR/><BR/>As for me going off on you, I felt that you were going off on me when you made the comment about not suggesting that my life was inadequately unselfless because it sounded sarcastic to me; perhaps as Chris said, it is hard to have a conversation like this without the immediacy of face to face conversation. In any case, I am sorry that we seem to have misudnerstood each other.<BR/><BR/><BR/>laurenluluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160148837043697382006-10-06T11:33:00.001-04:002006-10-06T11:33:00.001-04:00Lulu: UCC stands for United Church of Christ, does...Lulu: UCC stands for United Church of Christ, does it not? So forgive me for thinking that your belief system is a Christian one. Clearly you take extreme offense at the term "Christian universe," where no offense was meant. We all define the universe through our belief systems, yes? So I really don't understand what is so upsetting.<BR/><BR/>And as for the rest of what I said, you asked me, pointedly, what I would suggest you do, and then when I suggest something, you go off on me for making assumptions about you, even though I thought I was pretty clear about not knowing enough about your values to propose anything other than a hypothetical. I also meant, sincerely, that I was not suggesting anything about the level of selflessness in your life, and yet you choose to defend yourself against a charge I did not make. <BR/><BR/>I make it a rule never to argue with people who are so defensive that they cannot listen clearly. I'm sorry that I've angered you. I never meant to do that. But I'm done.vikkitikkitavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01501311175482530001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160148810096626922006-10-06T11:33:00.000-04:002006-10-06T11:33:00.000-04:00It's not fancy by any means, but the food is good ...It's not fancy by any means, but the food is good and it is old-school Italian. Plus, the owners can't stand Dubya. If you go, look closely to see one of my carved fish.Some Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160148090983002522006-10-06T11:21:00.000-04:002006-10-06T11:21:00.000-04:00cool. I have a friend coming in from MPLS and we ...cool. I have a friend coming in from MPLS and we are looking for someplace interesting to go for dinner.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160147092812635922006-10-06T11:04:00.000-04:002006-10-06T11:04:00.000-04:00Oops! Club Lago. SE corner.Oops! Club Lago. SE corner.Some Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160146236080565002006-10-06T10:50:00.000-04:002006-10-06T10:50:00.000-04:00What's the name of the restaurant?What's the name of the restaurant?luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160143647575936572006-10-06T10:07:00.000-04:002006-10-06T10:07:00.000-04:00I wasn't sure if I should, but since this is my bl...I wasn't sure if I should, but since this is my blog and I feel like I should at least pretend that I'm moderating discussions here, I want to thank people for their thoughtful comments. The problem I find with communicating this way is that things can get "lost in translation" when thoughts aren't delivered in person. You often miss things like nuance, sarcasm, and probing questions can be mistaken for personal affronts (not saying that any of that took place here). Vikki and Lulu, you are two bloggers I have come to admire and, based on what I've read, you share similar outlooks on many things. For me, the thing that is important to remember when it comes to things like religion/spirituality is that, ultimately, none of us knows anything for certain. By the way, Lulu, as a Chicagoan I am going to make a personal pitch for my friend's Italian restaurant on Superior and Orleans. If you are ever in the mood for a new place, give it a try. Mention "Monkey Balls" to either Guido or GianCarlo and you'll be treated like a queen.Some Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160114047830883332006-10-06T01:54:00.000-04:002006-10-06T01:54:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160113656796737892006-10-06T01:47:00.000-04:002006-10-06T01:47:00.000-04:00V-I don't really believe in a "Christian Universe"...V-I don't really believe in a "Christian Universe" and I don't think I ever said anything that would imply that I did. <BR/><BR/>As far as walking the walk instead of just talking the talk, one of the reasons I like the church that I was raised in, the UCC, is because it is very politically and socially active. Not only is it inclusive as I mentioned earlier, but the denomiation as a whole has a long history of social justice, starting with the Abolitionist movement and ranging from organizing many of the voter registrations in the South during the civil rights movement, to sponsoring Laotion refuges in the 1980s to being actively anti-war right now.<BR/><BR/>You are not trying to shame me by saying that my life is inadequately unselfless? I teach high school in a low-income urban school, the majority of my time is spend advocating for my students. I know all about values in action.<BR/><BR/>What I find funny is that you read the word "church" and the word "values" together and you automatically make assumptions about me.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160095544668872782006-10-05T20:45:00.000-04:002006-10-05T20:45:00.000-04:00Chris- (and Lulu)My experiences growing up in rura...Chris- (and Lulu)<BR/>My experiences growing up in rural Pennsyltuckey were remarkabley similar, and with a very similar outcome, but I proudly label myself an athiest. I love how freaked out people get. They can't handle it. They also think it means they can be rude about my spiritual beliefs.RandyLuvsPaistehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14432276211943447401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1160064984458450372006-10-05T12:16:00.000-04:002006-10-05T12:16:00.000-04:00Lulu, I can't know what your values are, and I'm s...Lulu, I can't know what your values are, and I'm sure it's a way complicated thing for you to explain in this forum, but you seem to be indicating that it's important to you that your children hear people talk about religion in a way that reinforces how you define a Christian universe. That's fine, but if you examine what is being said in the Bible that you agree with; what it is about Christianity as a belief system that makes it the right choice for you, then wouldn't it be a great thing for you, and for your children, to see and participate in those values in action, and not just being talked about? If you're all about Jesus and if-a-man-asks-for-your-coat-give-him-your-cloak-as-well, then wouldn't it be a fine thing for you all to spend that Sunday morning, or any time at all, helping those that need your coat?<BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to shame you by suggesting that your life is inadequately unselfless, I'm just saying that values in action beats values talked about from a pulpit any day.<BR/><BR/>One of the big reasons that children begin to ignore the teachings of their parents, I feel, is that they get the idea that those teachings are hollow. And all too often, those children are dead right.<BR/><BR/>Lulu, you sound like a good person, and someone who is determined to do the right thing. I'm sure you'll figure out the way that is right for you.vikkitikkitavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01501311175482530001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159983973703890302006-10-04T13:46:00.000-04:002006-10-04T13:46:00.000-04:00V (your name is far too long to type out) Where t...V (your name is far too long to type out) Where then do you suggest that people find a community? I am certainly not suggesting that church stand in for parental guidence, I am saying that outside of church I don't think it is possible to find a group that has a common set of values, and that children need to have the values that their parents find important reenforced. <BR/><BR/>The key is picking the church wisely. I keep talking about the UCC, mostly because that is the church I grew up in, but also because as an adult I find that their social values mesh with my own.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159979364114111122006-10-04T12:29:00.000-04:002006-10-04T12:29:00.000-04:00Chris, I'm sure you're familiar with Jared Diamond...Chris, I'm sure you're familiar with Jared Diamond. You should read The Third Chimpanzee, which deals with human evolution and the role that emotions played in that process.<BR/><BR/>And I'm not trying to pick on Lulu, who clearly has her head screwed on right on this issue, but I just have to say that I really have to fight my anger when I read statements like "I don't know where else you find a sense of community that is values-driven," referring to church.<BR/><BR/>People who feel that way would do well, I think, to seriously and deeply examine why. Because I think that would tell them a lot about what their values are and what it is they really want for their children. And in the process of examining those ideas, they might feel that some of them have changed.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that church can't play a healthy and important part in a person's life. But to ascribe to any church the role of instilling "values" in your life or your children's is to miss a lot of what is going on all around you, and to run the risk of narrowing the experiences and viewpoints of yourself and your family.vikkitikkitavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01501311175482530001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159978426335173922006-10-04T12:13:00.000-04:002006-10-04T12:13:00.000-04:00So what you're saying is that one, small, tiny ato...So what you're saying is that one, small, tiny atom in my fingernail could be one, small, tiny universe?<BR/><BR/>This is too much! <BR/><BR/>Can I buy some pot from you?Frank Sirmarcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03216447560090410371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159974412293697672006-10-04T11:06:00.000-04:002006-10-04T11:06:00.000-04:00I think the key is finding a church that has a set...I think the key is finding a church that has a set of beliefs you buy into, obviously if you are an atheist that won't work, but there are chuches that don't do that "our way is the only way" thing.<BR/><BR/>And yes, the UCC is the church that did the gay-friendly ads a few years ago. The UCC church in my neighborhood has a lot of gay marriage ceremonies. Not legal binding, obviously.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159967103436272282006-10-04T09:05:00.000-04:002006-10-04T09:05:00.000-04:00Lulu- I love it when people get into discussions l...Lulu- I love it when people get into discussions like this! Thanks! Like I said, my church experiences were positive for the most part. I do think it's sad that in order to find the "community" you talk about, you must subscribe to a certain set of beliefs or at least fake it like I did. When I was in church, any adult interaction I had was not unlike what I had in school - a teacher/student relationship. Another question- I take it from your comments that you currently don't go to church. How do your parents feel about that?<BR/><BR/>Megan- Thanks for your comments. You do get bonus points! I checked the website and the movie looks like it's right up my alley. Unfortunately, it's not available on Netflix. Yes, I have seen "What The Bleep". Another cool, trippy movie I like is "Waking Life". There is a lot of complex thought packed into a cool looking animated film. Done by Richard Linklater of "Dazed & Confused" fame.Some Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159959927561714332006-10-04T07:05:00.000-04:002006-10-04T07:05:00.000-04:00Did they have one implying "everyone" means gay pe...Did they have one implying "everyone" means gay people too? I remember talking about that with my gov't students.<BR/><BR/>And Chris, you do know <I>What the Bleep</I>, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159929474231338392006-10-03T22:37:00.000-04:002006-10-03T22:37:00.000-04:00Oh but I never said *serious* church going kids, d...Oh but I never said *serious* church going kids, did I? I'm talking the kids who go to church on Sunday and go to youth group because their parents want them to, and what the hell, the kids there are pretty cool.<BR/><BR/>Religious extremists of all kinds scare me.<BR/><BR/>If you actually did want to check out a church sometime, try a UCC one, they're the church that ran those "we accept everybody" ads a while back.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159921529240440342006-10-03T20:25:00.000-04:002006-10-03T20:25:00.000-04:00Chris, Do I get bonus points for recommending a mo...Chris, Do I get bonus points for recommending a movie you've never heard of? You should definitely check it out, especially if you can watch it in the comfort of your own home and not on the floor of some hippie holistic healing center. It's really a pretty amazing exploration of religious beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Lu, I think community is lacking all around. I never felt much of a sense of community in the church we went to as kids. . .we went to church and then went to Krispy Kreme for donuts and then went home and played baseball. I think there was more community at Krispy Kreme (plus REALLY good donuts) and on the baseball field than there was at church. But maybe that was just my church.<BR/><BR/>I don't think I'd take my kids to church. I might take them to a bunch of different churches to expose them to other ideas, but I can't imagine what church's values I'd feel comfortable transmitting to my kids part and parcel. Maybe a Unitarian church. . .I don't know.<BR/><BR/>And my experience as a teacher suggests that the serious church-going kids are the kids who don't think there's any need to consider anything beyond what they already believe. But I live in Baptist country and not Lutheran country.<BR/><BR/>Vikki, I think the complexity of nature and the underlying order of the cosmos is precisely what makes me feel religious. And precisely why I do my worshiping outside or vs. in a church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159911633067197522006-10-03T17:40:00.000-04:002006-10-03T17:40:00.000-04:00I don't know where else you find a sense of commun...I don't know where else you find a sense of community that is values-driven. I suppose you go do scouting or something, but that is single-sex and divided by age. Church is the only place I can think of where children are exposed to so many people, except school, and at school the majority of the influence is other kids.<BR/><BR/>I totally buy into that "it takes a village" idea about raising kids, and I think that one of the reasons we seem to have a lot more problems with kids now is that they don't think that they need to listen to adults. When I was a kid (God I sound old) and an adult, any adult, told me do do something, I listened, now kids are likely to say "You're not my mother" or something similar. <BR/><BR/>Plus, based on my experiences as a teacher, the kids who go to church and talk about youth group and nicer, better behaved kids. Obviously a total generalization, but I think there is some truth to it.luluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468418041443316689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159900993088258992006-10-03T14:43:00.000-04:002006-10-03T14:43:00.000-04:00Are we the only animals that feel these emotions? ...Are we the only animals that feel these emotions? I doubt it.<BR/><BR/>Do these emotions help us survive as a species? Yes.<BR/><BR/>Are we the only animals that are self aware? I doubt it?<BR/><BR/>Are we the only animals with disparities between them? No.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29470700.post-1159900219371177902006-10-03T14:30:00.000-04:002006-10-03T14:30:00.000-04:00Vikki-I am intrigued when you say that emotions ar...Vikki-I am intrigued when you say that emotions aren't so tough to explain. Could you? I'd like to hear more. The complexity of human physiology and nature is awesome, I agree, but it's human consciousness and the disparaties from person to person that leads me to start considering the possible presence of something more than just atom A and atom B either repelling or merging.Some Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06899082993897012313noreply@blogger.com